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Bram Lagrou: hello. Welcome back everybody to the Energize with Bram Podcast. my name is Bram Lagrou. want to say thank you so much for tuning in with us as always, and today, I've invited somebody who I thought stood out in some shape or form, that has a story that I think is compelling, and a message and a methodology that she thrives by and helps organizations with that I believe all of us can learn from.
Whether we're an individual, a leader, have a team, a business owner, or you're a corporate executive, the same message is one that is relating to all of us, which is one of looking after ourselves so that we can look better after other people. I want to welcome today to the podcast Sophie Bretag. How are you going?
Sophie Bretag: Hi, Bram. It's so lovely to be part of your podcast and to see you again. Thanks for having me.
Bram Lagrou: That's it.
Well, as you alluded to it, our paths somehow came together in an organization where at the time you were working in HR [00:01:00] as- Mm-hmm ... a
Sophie Bretag: senior exec. Yep.
Bram Lagrou: or a senior manager. that was Police Health at the time.
Sophie Bretag: Yep.
Bram Lagrou: What have you been doing since Sophie?
Sophie Bretag: HR consulting, and really specializing in, workplace wellbeing, but also working with small to medium-sized businesses and helping them with their HR needs, because often small to medium-sized, businesses don't have the financial capability to have a full-time HR person.
But with, all things legislation and people within organizations, there's often a need for support and help, and having that person that can, make sure everything's organized and compliant and the people are safe and well. So I've been doing that, and I've also been, prepping for my book to be launched over the last, six months or so, and it's now out in the world, so I've been focusing on that and family.
And I guess a work-life balance, which has been great.
Bram Lagrou: We're gonna talk about your book, The Kind Way, we're gonna talk about that a little bit later. But before we get there, I think one of the things that I've noticed that you talk about a lot is that [00:02:00] being kind to oneself, you know, taking time to take the shoes off, walk through the water bare feet, and, you know, take a bit of time to relax and unwind.
That obviously is the outcome of something that happened prior. Could you just expand a little bit more what your personal trajectory has been and where you were kind of forced into doing something differently?
Sophie Bretag: So I have always been interested in taking care of others and how best to do that, and I have always taken care of myself in the traditional sense, so always slept well, eaten well, that kind of thing, exercise.
But from an emotional perspective, I probably didn't realize until 2024 how important it is to be kind f- to ourselves first and foremost, and the reason that that became so evident to me is because in early 2024, I was diagnosed with head and neck cancer. [00:03:00] I had just started my job with Police Health, actually.
And, I was diagnosed with, a tumor on my tongue and then I had to have surgery to remove part of my tongue, and I had, 30 lymph nodes taken out from underneath my neck and a salivary gland. So it was a really- challenging time. I wasn't able to talk properly for quite an extensive period of time.
I still have some, I'm gonna call it laziness to the side of my tongue because it's still numb and part of my neck is still numb, and we're two years down the track. I just celebrated, two years cancer-free in May, which is amazing. Yes, I feel really, really lucky. so through that process, I really had to take a look at what was really important to me to make sure that I could heal well enough that I could still be there for my loved ones and that I could still work.
Because I love working and I didn't wanna take too much time off as well, and I had just stepped up into a role covering some [00:04:00] leave as well, so I needed to be able to work as well So through that process, it really showed me where I needed to step back, who were the people that were supporting me and lifting me and taking care of me, in a really authentic and real way and caring about me, and what were the things I needed to put in place to make sure that I could heal.
healing, it's only just, apparently nerves take a couple of years to actually reform, so I'm at like peak capacity now of, of the f- of the nerves rejoining. But I wanted to be able to get back to some normality in life, and so self-kindness came into everything that I did through that time.
And so it was really... It, it saved my life, firstly, because I listened to my body intuitively, 'cause there was a lump on my tongue. I went and got it checked. normally with head and neck cancer, it is [00:05:00] something that is quite unusual for my cohort. So it's usually people who are over 60 who are heavy smokers and heavy drinkers.
and so my tumor was, quite unusual. And so I like to talk about it because I'm an open book. Because I think if my journey can help somebody else, then, hopefully, you know, someone might not lose their life to head and neck cancer, 'cause it can be quite underlying, and a lot of people-
don't notice it until there's a lump that comes up in the neck, or there's something. 'Cause it can be sort of around the gums, it can be your tongue, and it can be down the throat. So I was just very lucky that I was able to notice it earlier and get it fixed and live my best life. But self-kindness was everything, so.
Bram Lagrou: Brilliant.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: In stark contrast- you sometimes talk about people pushing themselves and achieving and, going out and fight and do this and that, And then there's on the other side, the burnout or disease or illness in the middle.
Sophie Bretag: Mm-hmm. 100%. [00:06:00]
Bram Lagrou: What is your perspective on all that?
Like, 'cause sometimes people say things happen for a reason or- Mm-hmm ... a gift, presents itself often in disguise. Like, I think you're pretty spiritual, so I would imagine- I am ... that you would have, the way that you interpret that all. So go ahead.
Sophie Bretag: it was a gift. So, I didn't speak to the burnout that happened when I finished, in the aged care sector post-COVID.
So I had a really, really, challenging time working about seven and a half years in, in aged care and at the end of COVID, it kind of just, it just, it did me in. And so I took six months off. I was heavily burnt out after that. And I look back at that now, and as the, even that was really difficult, I took six months off to recover The gift in that, or the reason that that occurred, is because it enabled me to start my own consulting firm in wellbeing.
I started that during that time, so that was a massive gift 'cause that's the company I still, you know, my consulting firm that I still run now. it also gave [00:07:00] me a really big perspective on how when we give and overgive to everything a- around us, but undergive to ourselves, how that can really, really not only physically impact but, but mentally and emotionally impact us as well.
So that has formed some of the groundwork and some of the, work that's now in my book that I've now written. And the gift in cancer, and I know that sounds so strange, to say that there was a gift in that. But absolutely the main thing for me was because I talk a lot, a very verbose kind of human, I love to communicate, I love to chitchat, but I had to stop and pause and listen.
And not just listen to other people and hold space for them, 'cause I do that in my daily job anyway, but really, really turn inwards and reflect and listen to myself and work out what mattered, what didn't matter, the people that mattered, the experiences I wanted to experience. you know, I think if you talk to anyone [00:08:00] who has a life-threatening situation, it sounds really cliche, but your world flashes before you- particularly when you get a diagnosis. And for me it was my goodness, there's so many things that I haven't done. There's so many people I haven't told how much I love them. I'm not gonna see my... I might not see my kids grow up." So all of these things go through your mind when you get that kind of diagnosis.
So there is a gift in that because then it shows you, or it reminds you really, how important and precious life is, and we need to be doing the things that light us up firstly, with the humans that light us up and love us, and that we love as well. So huge gifts. not great. Wouldn't recommend going through these things.
But, you know, when you look back on things, often the hardest things are the greatest gifts, yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Look, it's a turbulent time. I'm sure you would've been on the rollercoaster of emotions especially- Yeah ... thinking about, like, you know, when you're thinking of your kids and spending time with them and, like- Mm
the realization that we're mortal and that it might come to an end pretty soon. I mean, that's, that's shattering, like, big time. [00:09:00] Mm. I can only empathize with how challenging that must have been for you. But hey, good to see that you came out on the other side. Thank you. and that, yes, yeah, since then you've been on a spiritual and physical journey, Yeah
to heal and look- Yeah ... after yourself. Yeah.
Tell us a little bit more about The Kind Way, that book of yours that, obviously is talking about your framework, the four pillars. Tell us a little bit more.
Sophie Bretag: So The Kind Way, really was born from seeing and experiencing myself people who over-give and, push themselves to beyond what's usually humanly possible to achieve or to make others happy or whatever it is that you're trying to do in life.
And I really saw a gap, in every time I talked about self-kindness or kindness to people, so many people said, "I don't know what that means. Is it just being friendly to someone? Is it just talking to people, in a lovely way? Is it smiling? Is it doing an act of kindness?" Because we hear a lot around random acts of [00:10:00] kindness, which are absolutely amazing and absolutely important, but the core of my book, I saw this gap in self-kindness, particularly in leadership, and how I could, with my own experience of applying self-kindness to myself and measuring it myself and tracking it, how I could potentially put that forward to...
I'm so sorry, Bram. That, someone was trying to call me and I couldn't get rid of them. It hung up. It's okay. Sorry. If you could just flip it
Bram Lagrou: again, please.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah, it is. that's weird. It's-
Bram Lagrou: Oh.
Sophie Bretag: Oh, there we go. Okay. Yeah. So I'm so sorry. Will that muck up the recording? Sorry. And then they tried to ring me back 'cause I hung up on them.
I'm like, "No,
Bram Lagrou: go away." That's okay. So you
Sophie Bretag: Self-kindness for leaders. yeah. So self-kindness for leadership.
So I saw this real gap in the way leaders were taking care of themselves, and also seeing leaders who weren't taking care of themselves and the impact that that was having on not only their immediate teams, but also the wider [00:11:00] organizations that they were working within.
I've seen a lot of leaders in my nearly two decades in HR, been one myself, and some of the most challenging things and behaviors that I've seen is around, knowing yourself, which is actually the first pillar of my framework. Because a lot of people say that they're self-aware, that they're emotionally intelligent, that they understand who they are, and yet when you see them interacting in a workplace or with teams, there can be this disconnect between, you're saying you know how you're behaving and you're saying you know how you're impacting the people around you, but are you actually aware of how that is perceived by others?
And so there's a really big piece, I think, in leadership that a lot of us, have a perception of ourselves that may not be the reality of the way that other people perceive us. And so, when we say walk your talk, that's a really big piece of knowing yourself, because if you're not showing up in alignment with your values and who you are in a state of congruence and consistency, then how can your teams [00:12:00] possibly thrive?
how can you expect your teams to know, how you want them to behave and, get the work done if you're not showing up in a manner that is, conducive to that as well? So that was the foundation of it for me, because getting to know myself better as a human has really changed the way that I live and lead, both in my personal life and in workplaces.
I did the Brene Brown Dare to Lead program in 2019, and that really gave me such a, an insight into quite a few things in the way that I was behaving or how I was showing up or my thought patterns and things that I wasn't aware of. And that really was a, a wonderful way... It was quite confronting, not gonna, not gonna lie, because, you know, we all have things about ourselves that we don't like.
But I think the, the main part was having curiosity around the parts that maybe weren't so pretty and lovely, and the bits that everybody might like, and really [00:13:00] looking at myself and saying, you know, "If this is how I'm showing up or if this is the way people might perceive me..." If we have a perception of the way that we're showing up and then the way that, other people are seeing us, then that's gonna be a real challenge in, getting the best out of our teams and the best out of ourselves. So my framework has four pillars under the acronym of KIND.
Bram Lagrou: Before you go to that- ... can I just, challenge you a little bit and ask you- what specifically was the confronting part for you when you went through that process and you were alerted to things that you weren't aware of?
Sophie Bretag: Mm. yeah, absolutely. As I said, I'm an open book. No problems.
I think if I can share, my experience and be as open as possible, then I have no problems with, with sharing that.
But, probably a couple of things for me. One was around, not, not knowing what, what my values were, which sounds really strange. But I think a lot of people think that they know what's important to them, but when they actually put a label to what that value or what they value, it can be quite confronting.
So at the time, we were [00:14:00] looking at our values in the Brene Brown program, and I'd never, ever looked or thought about it before. And one of the things I had as my top few values, in my top five, were travel and, success. And my family value wasn't as high. And I had a really hard time because I had younger children at that time.
I had a really hard time thinking- How can I possibly p- be putting my work before my children? Because I love my children, but I also really, really wanna succeed, and I want a successful career, and I wanna create impact. And I think when we're faced in the black and white around, being really honest with ourselves about what matters, why it matters, and are we okay with how it feels for that to matter.
And so I had to work through, and I didn't... My values weren't... My values didn't change because I thought I should have them a particular way. What I had to do was work my way through knowing that I [00:15:00] value things, but at the moment in my life, I'm really, really valuing my career, and I really wanna do travel, but how do I bring my family, who are important to me, along on that journey as well?
So there was that piece. There was also another piece around, the way in which I communicate. So I am a very direct communicator. I can be quite blunt at times, and I had to really take a step back, I think, and, you know, I can put sugar on top when I need to, but if I'm under pressure, I'm certainly a very direct communicator.
I don't like fluff, fluffy conversations. I don't like people to just waffle on. I just want people to tell me what you want me to do, how you want me to do it, and then let me go do it, and I think that that can be quite abrasive to some people who don't have that communication style. So that was a really big, piece for me to learn around, reading the room, and then being self-aware enough to, put a little bit more softness to my words and my directives, when I was communicating.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah. This is where DISC is, again, such a wonderful tool. We [00:16:00] spoke about it- 100%. Yeah ... before we started, right? Yes. Yep. So your D sometimes then- Right ... gets really very dominant-
Sophie Bretag: Yes ...
Bram Lagrou: direct, and abrasive potentially. Mm-hmm. Or for some. Yeah. that's just an interpretation. it's not a fact, it's just a-
direct style.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: how has that whole piece of DISC- helped you as a leader and as an HR
professional?
Sophie Bretag: I think that I've done DISC now three times over my, in different, stages of my career, and at certain times I've come out a little bit stronger in certain parts just depending on what's happening in my life and my career at that time. But for me, it's a core part of knowing yourself, isn't it?
Because if you can know yourself from the way in which your makeup is made up, then it gives you the capability to then become more adaptable, more, empathetic, more understanding, more influential, I think, in the way in which you can communicate with people, but also the way in which you [00:17:00] can understand others.
So when you know yourself, you can lead from a place of knowing how you can then interact with others, and put your best foot forward. I'm 100% love DISC. Brilliant. I absolutely love it. I think it's a great tool.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah, that's right. Well, I certainly, like you, really love it.
I think there's a lot of value in good methodologies, and there's multiple out there, but that's definitely one of them. So your style is high I, high D, right? So depending on, they might see the really frivolous, flamboyant- ... energizing, bubbly I, or they might see the very, "Hey, let's get results." Get it done.
Success. Yeah.
Sophie Bretag: children often see
Bram Lagrou: that one. Let's get it done. don't fluff around. Time is money sort of thing.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah, 100%.
Bram Lagrou: having said that, I'm wondering, you now said like, hey, there's these four pillars and it starts with self-awareness. So- Mm-hmm ... whether it's Brene Brown's process or DISC or any other tool that helps one to become more self-aware-
Sophie Bretag: Mm-hmm
Bram Lagrou: what are then the three next pillars of your framework?
Sophie Bretag: So the second one is I, so include with intention. something that I've seen in my [00:18:00] HR work is, obviously we focus on the humans within the workplace, and our world is so hyper-connected. We are so aware of other people's cultural backgrounds, and, the world is a melting pot.
Like it's a beautiful, amazing place to be, but with that can come some challenges around- Cultural backgrounds, trauma impact in people's lives, workplace situations that people might have found themselves in. You know, when they move to a new workplace, they might have moved out of a not so great workplace.
communication styles is another one, awareness around including, people in conversation. I think that often, we talk about inclusion sometimes just from a cultural perspective, but I think that there are so many facets to being inclusive and how we can really truly see the human in front of us.
And, by knowing ourselves, it gives us the space to then, hold space for others and get to know them and [00:19:00] include them in a really meaningful and, beautiful way. So this is where belonging and mattering come in within a workplace. say for instance, if you're in a meeting, having a chat with your team, having a think about it as a leader, if you're the person leading the meeting, who are the people that always talk?
Who are the people that don't always talk? And are those people that don't get the chance to talk or don't feel confident enough to talk or are just, you know, the deep thinkers, how are we being inclusive for them? So are we giving them the space to actually, put their innovative ideas forward?
Are we giving them the space to actually loop back and have a conversation around their thoughts on a particular topic or a project or whatever they're working on? And I think so often, particularly I know with my, and this has been a benefit for me, but knowing the way that I communicate Is allowing, the quiet leaders the space to step up and put their ideas forward as well.
Because I know that a lot of quiet people are often [00:20:00] the most beautiful deep thinkers, and they come up with things that are often quite different to the people like me who just kind of go blur with my thoughts. Like what comes into my mind comes out. so inclusion for me under this pillar is a lot more than just your cultural background.
It's how do we create a space where the person in front of us feels like they're seen and they matter and that they belong in whatever space they're working within. So yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Mm. Those, just to interpret it back from a DIS perspective, those slower methodical, thoughtful- Yeah ... people are typically the C's.
Sophie Bretag: C's,
Bram Lagrou: yep. And sometimes S's as well, right? Yeah. So the slower paced people-
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: that not necessarily feel comfortable in opening up in a large group-
Sophie Bretag: Mm ...
Bram Lagrou: and where they like to just either write or have a one-on-one conversation or even like share stuff anonymously or through email-
So yeah, I like how you're mindful of that- Mm ... 'cause when... Like I find that the interesting thing is, and this is the work that we sometimes also did, together at Police Health, is that when you do a town hall meeting there's [00:21:00] a lot of people. Yeah. And then somebody says, "Blur, this is what I think that we should do."
But then some people they just feel intimidated just to speak up. Like public speaking is really a fearful thing for many people. So for them- Mm ... then to come out of their shell- Mm ... they don't do it. The I's and D's do but the S's and C's don't. Right. So we gotta find other ways to include them as well as part of the process.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: I'm glad that you're on top of that.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah. Thank
Bram Lagrou: Obviously I would've expected. So tell us more about the other sides of the pillars. So we got so far now, the self-awareness, then the inclusion. What else is there?
Sophie Bretag: Yep.
And then N is in the KINDS, acronym stands for nurture your capacity.
So I think that this is a piece around, we look at capacity when we're in a workplace often around the amount of work that we can get done within a particular period of time. But, I love that we're on an Energize, podcast discussion because it's really about how we can, build, retain, and sustain our energy as leaders.
So what are the [00:22:00] things in our daily life that we can bring in that make us feel, energized, lighter, happier, more connected, less stressed, and just living our best lives? Because when we are- it's such a cliche, pouring from an empty cup. But when we are depleted energetically or emotionally or even mentally, that can really show up in the way in which we, show up in the team and lead our teams, but also with our family members in our daily lives.
So nurturing your capacity could be anything from making sure you're well-hydrated, to having fresh air in the workplace, being able to open windows up, to having plants in the workplace or on your desk. Barefoot, walking through water, or walking on the beach, or walking on grass, getting out in nature.
All the things that we look at as a wellbeing or wellness, thing to implement in our life, I think [00:23:00] it will be different for every person, and it is different. But it's the combination of things that make you feel genuinely able to hold space for others and to enjoy your life and feel good.
Bram Lagrou: There's this beautiful, analogy, which you as a mother would also, relate to, I imagine, is that when you sit on a plane and there's an emergency happening and all the masks, the oxygen masks- drop, you first put it on you.
Sophie Bretag: Mm-hmm.
Bram Lagrou: Because how can you as a mother, as a parent, as a leader, as an advisor, how can you really look after others if you haven't looked after yourself?
So- 100% ... start with you. So- Yeah ... whatever helps you to get the oxygen, give it to yourself, right? Yeah. Like, 'cause,
Sophie Bretag: Exactly ...
Bram Lagrou: it's very easy to keep giving, giving, giving-
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: at the expense of ourself.
Sophie Bretag: It is ...
Bram Lagrou: I think it's a good idea for us to have a little chat about is it possible that one of the genders might find themselves more so in that space of giving more at their own expense?
Sophie Bretag: I think that predominantly and [00:24:00] traditionally women who- I think it's becoming a lot different now because we have a lot of, stay-at-home dads and, partners who are supporting us. my husband is absolutely amazing. He does all the cooking. He does all of the washing, folding.
I do all the other bits and pieces in the house. He'll do stuff outside. We're a real team. And I think that, traditionally it's been seen as the female job or place to, take care of the children, make sure the household's happy, and that is very much changing these days. I mean, I work, a lot differently to my husband.
we certainly work very well as a team. So I think, yes, to answer that question, yes, I think probably traditionally women do tend to carry a lot of the mental load. I certainly carry a lot of the mental load when it comes to, you know, school pickups and all the extracurricular activities and doctor's appointments and vet, you know, visits for the dog and that kind of thing.
[00:25:00] But I would like to think that hopefully men are starting to take care of themselves well as well now because there is such a prevalence of mental ill health in young men and men. And I think that that comes from a expectation, whether it's a, societal expectation or something they're putting on themselves or whether it's cultural, that they need to be the provider and show up and push through.
And I think that, you know, when we, when we speak about our people, you know... when we speak about men or women- Not nurturing themselves. I think we've, we... women and men are so different that we have different problems and expectations, and they impact us differently.
And I think that, yeah, hopefully we're just working our way through that and working out that, you know, people need, to support themselves as a [00:26:00] human first and foremost.
Bram Lagrou: Mm.
Sophie Bretag: So, yeah.
Bram Lagrou: 100%. And like you said earlier, different people need different things. Yeah. So, one might say walking bare feet through the water or in a forest might be really-
connecting to the earth and- kind of channeling their energy and making them feel more relaxed and peaceful. That might be one. But for other people, it's something completely different. So, Mm ... it might be punching a boxing ball or-
Sophie Bretag: Right ...
Bram Lagrou: It, it's about, again, back to self-awareness. What do I-
really like to feed me and nurture me- and look after myself? Right?
Sophie Bretag: Absolutely. and I think that there is this perception that we need to be doing a particular thing to make ourselves well or to be well, It's almost putting an extra expectation on ourselves that, oh, well, if I don't like going to the gym, maybe I'm not taking care of myself well enough.
But what is it that I like to do? You know, I think so often as we grow up, we lose sight of that curiosity around, "I feel like doing this today. I'm gonna do this," or, "I feel like eating this today. I'm gonna do this." And then we get onto social media and go, "Oh, no, that's bad for us. Oh, no, we should be doing this," [00:27:00] or, "We should be doing..."
And I think that word should impacts us all, quite heavily in the way in which we show up in our lives, and in workplaces,
Bram Lagrou: Well, should
Sophie Bretag: always- Interesting topic.
Bram Lagrou: Should always, indicates an expectation of something or someone else-
Sophie Bretag: Mm ...
Bram Lagrou: that we see as the standard, often taking back what we think is really important.
So it's, there's a power in
Sophie Bretag: it ... it's kind of a
Bram Lagrou: clash. Right?
Sophie Bretag: There's a power in that, though, and I think, if you get that know yourself part right, you will start to intuitively tap into the things that feel good because you'll give yourself that reflection time to actually go, "Oh, hey, you know, that felt really good," or, "I really enjoyed that.
Maybe I need to incorporate a little bit more of that into my life." And so, yeah, it's that piece again, isn't it, of being really in touch and connected to yourself so you know what you can do more of and be more of and have more of.
Bram Lagrou: So true.
I'm curious, Sophie- [00:28:00] As a high I, you would appreciate differences.
Sophie Bretag: Yes.
Bram Lagrou: But, we also know that especially in the workplace, we can easily judge differences because we don't understand it, we don't appreciate it. I call it the head and heart thing. You don't understand in your head why people would do it that way or why they wouldn't do it that way.
Sophie Bretag: Mm-hmm.
Bram Lagrou: And then you start judging it in your heart, which means your, your c- your heart closes, and then you basically call it a label.
Mm-hmm. And therefore, there's a disconnect. People don't get along. They don't work well together. you don't get the best of yourself or the other, Mm-hmm. What's your perspective on differences? Like, how do you think great leaders versus not so great leaders, how do they deal with differences?
Whether culturally speaking, behaviorally speaking, value-wise, and so on.
Sophie Bretag: I'm thinking of one great leader in particular that I've worked for, and they were wonderfully adept at being [00:29:00] curious, before judging. So holding space in a place of curiosity before they jumped into, assessing the person in front of them.
they were also really good at being humble. So, answering a question with, "I don't know the answer to that. How about we work that out together?" Or, "Could you give me your ideas, because I'd really like a different perspective on what you're thinking that might solve this problem?" So they're two things that I've found are really, really important, because then that gives the person in front of them, the understanding that they're seen and that they matter and that they are important in the workplace.
And that then helps to bring buy-in when you're trying to bring in changes or bring a team to work together on particular projects. I feel that great leaders tend to be very agile as well, so they are more easily [00:30:00] adaptive when challenges arise. They can bend and flex the way that they need to show up to be able to get the best out of the people in front of them.
instead of having that rigidity in, "This is me, this is who I am, this is how I show up, and this is my expectation, so now go and get it done," that's never gonna get you as far as saying, "I really respect what you bring to the table. I understand we might work differently, but what can we do to work together to make this, actually happen as a team rather than my way or the highway?"
sometimes people think that the best leaders are the people who, are friends with everybody in their team or friends with everyone in the organization, and I don't think that's true. I think respect before friendship- Mm
A more successful and impactful and influential leader because if you respect... Like, think about someone in your life. If you respect them, you may not genuinely think that you'd be friends outside the workplace, but there are a lot of [00:31:00] people in workplaces that I've gone, 'Wow, you're really interesting.
You know a lot of things, and I might not like you too much as a human because we're very different, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect you and that I won't work really professionally and in a really good way because you bring something really interesting to the table.' So yeah, so I think that there's a few facets to being a really good leader, and getting the best out of people.
Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: It's beautiful.
I love how you started with curiosity.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: Good leaders lead with curiosity rather than assuming that they know.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah. 100%.
Bram Lagrou: So being open to hearing somebody, like tuning in with someone- starts with asking questions rather than statements.
Sophie Bretag: Yes.
Bram Lagrou: I like that. The second one was being humble.
Mm. Right? Great. Third one was respect. Mm. And I like how you said that respect doesn't need to mean that you need to be friends, so therefore it's about a professional finding something that you appreciate in someone-
Sophie Bretag: Yep ...
Bram Lagrou: that makes you respect them, and therefore that builds connection. 'Cause it's very easy- Mm
if judgment gets in the way- Yeah ... that [00:32:00] any goodwill kind of goes out of the window at the same time, right? So just- Yeah ... find something.
I always say there's a, there's four things you can do. You can like, admire, trust, respect or, what was the other one? Like, admire, respect, and there's another one, a fourth one.
And really, if you just find something, it doesn't- Yeah ... just find something. Or, so you look up to something. Like it... You say, "Hey, I really like how they always dress so fa- like, so, so suavely." Yeah. Like, that's a like. Yeah. If you say like, "Hey, I really like how they interact with people and how they explain themselves it so eloquently"- Yeah
that's a like thing. "Hey, I really look up to how well they're doing things with numbers and how they make numbers come alive in a story." Whether you like, admire, respect, or anything else, you just find something positive.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: That helps you to build that communality- Yeah ... and builds a connection rather than a disconnect.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: I got a feeling- I think- ... that the leader that you were talking about is [00:33:00] somebody that I actually also know. Is that possible?
Sophie Bretag: n- no, not the one you're thinking of. Just, just checking ... but thank you for checking. No, it was a different one. Okay.
Bram Lagrou: anything else from your book,
Sophie Bretag: the four pillars- Yeah, so D-
that we haven't touched on yet?
So the, yeah, so the D in KIND is demonstrate conscious leadership. So it's really stepping into what we were really just talking about then, is really being self-aware enough to be curious enough to then have the capacity in yourself to give better to the world around you.
And so it's about what we put the first three pillars in place in the way in which we show up in, in our life and in leadership. So being, being that conscious leader. Mm.
Bram Lagrou: Beautiful. Love it. So KIND is really an acronym. It is. Can you just summarize it again quickly?
Sophie Bretag: Yeah. So K is know yourself, I is include with intention, N is nurture your capacity, and D is demonstrate conscious leadership.
Bram Lagrou: Sweet. I like it.
I wanna come back on something else that I've, noticed that, you're really big on, and- [00:34:00] I have to say I'm a bit conflicted about the notion. This is interesting. So as you know- I'm a psychologist by trade, right? Never practiced, but I got the degree.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: anytime when people say positive psychology-
Sophie Bretag: Mm
Bram Lagrou: in a way, it presses a hot button of mine a little bit. But could you explain objectively what it is?
Sophie Bretag: So it's around being able to see, instead of mental ill health or instead of finding the deficit in things, it's about how we can have things in our life and structures and processes and, modalities that can bring out the positivity in our life.
So it is still around the human psyche. It is still around, having conversations and discussions and treatments for people. But they're probably less traditional. So things like gratitude and kindness and your wellbeing, and really looking at how you can boost the positivity in your life rather than finding the deficit or the ill health in people.
Bram Lagrou: Got [00:35:00] you. 'Cause yeah, obviously if people think of clinical psychology, it's all about- mental illness and-
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: challenges and problems- Yeah ... and weirdos and that sort of stuff, you know?
Sophie Bretag: Almost like treating the illness or treating the deficit or the thing that's missing was...
Whereas what I love about positive psychology is, it puts us into a mindset firstly of what are the things that are really good for us, and what are the things that are amazing for our happiness and our wellbeing, and what is it that we can do more of instead of treating a gap. Mm.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah. Try to fix it up, patch it up, right?
Sophie Bretag: That's right.
Bram Lagrou: Now, here's an interesting one. Have you ever considered, hand to heart, that positive psychology is originally conceptualized by high I's?
Sophie Bretag: No, I had never thought about that, but probably. That is a really interesting thought. Potentially, because you have that inbuilt innate optimism in you as an I, and so it would be interesting to see whether [00:36:00] a lot more people who are I's are drawn to positive psychology over traditional psychology, and whether someone who is potentially a C or an S who's more detail-oriented and very much about rigor and structure and certain practices, whether they would find it too airy-fairy and they would need the more traditional psychology.
So yeah, interesting.
Bram Lagrou: 100%. Here's the thing. We all have cognitive biases.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: And if you have, let's say if you take a model like DISC, which is a behavioral style model and communication model and the likes, it really shows and reveals the cognitive biases that we all have in some shape or form. Like example, if you think of, like anytime when you and I sign a legal agreement that obviously has been drafted by lawyers before AIs probably doing it for us, right?
Yeah. Yeah. But let's just say that there's a thing in there that says the cool-off period clause, right? Yep, yep. That after you [00:37:00] sign something of significant value, that you have X amount of days to change your mind without any- Yep ... payback or penalties. Yep,
Sophie Bretag: yep.
Bram Lagrou: Well, who do you think they ever created that clause for?
Sophie Bretag: Well, probably the people who are the, yeah, the C's and the S... Well, really the S's probably. So yeah. C's. And contentious C. Yeah, C's 'cause they're- The C's
Bram Lagrou: who are very
Sophie Bretag: risk-averse ...
Bram Lagrou: they're
Sophie Bretag: data
Bram Lagrou: driven. Data driven. Which
Sophie Bretag: means- Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: we all come in from a certain perspective that we then kind of assume that everybody else shares with us.
But some people- Yeah ... they don't care, in your case, they don't care, about the positive, optimistic world perspective as much- Yeah ... as they p- go with more skepticism and, "Hey, I wa- I wanna cover my ass and make sure- Mm ... that I, that I can get out of it if, if, if I change my mind." Yeah. "If I get new information that shows me that it's not the right, smart way to go forward."
Sophie Bretag: Sorry, just on that, do you think that when we're looking at within a workplace and we're thinking about teams working well together, and if we're talking about DISC personalities- [00:38:00] You know how there's the adaptive style? It would be very interesting to see if there is a way to shift that cognitive bias within a workplace if they are more exposed to some of a different...
So like, you know, energy's contagious. So say, for instance, you've got a really optimistic person in a workplace working with a really not so positive person in the workplace. There is the potential for either the positive person to become less positive if they're exposed to more of the negativity, and vice versa.
So it'd be very interesting to see if someone was a really high C and they were of the more negative mindset, whether exposing them regularly, But exposing them to more positivity, which is where my work comes in and where my mindset comes in, is how you show up has a ripple effect.
So it would be interesting in a workplace to actually see, whether [00:39:00] if you put some really, really positive people in, whether it would rub the people up the wrong way who weren't very positive and it would become more uncomfortable or vice versa, or whether you could positively shift, a mindset to become a more positive cultural experience.
Anyway, I'm just putting it out there as a question.
Bram Lagrou: interesting question and, kind of an idea to kind of play around with.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: I don't know the exact answer to it either, but, one thing that I definitely have come to terms with is that- Like energy. Like, if you think about batteries, you got the positive and the negative-
Sophie Bretag: Mm
Bram Lagrou: and you need both of them to actually generate the energy.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: I think of DISC very similarly, is that the extremes need one another.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: And I firmly believe that. in English, we have this beautiful saying. I don't have it in my own language, which is Dutch. But here in English, we say our other half-
in our private life.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: And very often, if you check out the DISC, people of different kinds attract, find each other in a loving relationship at home.
Sophie Bretag: [00:40:00] Mm. Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Right? Your husband is probably- Yep ... your opposite.
Sophie Bretag: husband's... Yeah, we are. We're polar opposites,
Bram Lagrou: So then- Yeah ... the idea now is, though, when as soon as you go into a work environment, what I notice is that the differences, the opposites initially repel.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: Which is the opposite of what we just said about a loving relationship. But here's the point. I firmly believe these days that the differences are here to educate us and teach us- and own up to the differences so that we can find balance in the middle.
Sophie Bretag: Mm. You
Bram Lagrou: So back to your question.
Those high C people that are very skeptical, analytical, e- detail-driven and so on, and then you've got this really optimistic, flamboyant, energizing- Kind of annoying ... let me try influence you type person. Yeah, yeah. Right? Let me try to s- make you see the light, right? Like, let me just- get you out of your negativity-
and get you more into the positive. I can help you.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: This is what we tend to try to do, but here's the point.
I think if we just go in with, coming back to your point earlier, let's be curious.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: You [00:41:00] know? I'm self-aware enough to know that I'm really negative. Tell me, why are you always so positive, Sophie?
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: And why do you think positive psychology could help me?
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: If we start with that curiosity, guess what? We're already miles ahead. When we start seeing like, "Hey, rather than me judging you for being different, let me just- try to understand and appreciate why you are like that, and how that potentially could add value to me."
Sophie Bretag: Yeah, 100%.
And I think that fits in firmly under the include with intention part, because if we are curious enough to understand the people who are around us, then we will get far more traction in getting stuff done if the other person feels like they're understood.
Bram Lagrou: Mm.
Sophie Bretag: Because some of the biggest conflict come from communication breakdown, where one person's saying something, another person's saying the other thing.
They're meeting in the middle, but they're doing eh because they both think that they're [00:42:00] right. And I think if you can come at those conversations with curiosity... And there's a vulnerability with that as well, 'cause it's saying, "Hey, I don't have all the answers. I may not be right." Can we work out the best way forward from here?
And I think that that... I mean, obviously there's emotion and that kind of thing that comes in it with, you know, uncomfortable conversations. But yeah, I think that the main thing that we can do is start with curiosity. I think that's super important. Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: and if people don't go there, Sophie, what else gets in the way?
what stuff gets in the way of that?
Sophie Bretag: Oh, ego. I think when we... We've all seen, you know, when a leader, and I'm talking about a, a, you know, even leaders when they come together and they're having a robust conversation, I think, you know, there's a certain amount of ego that's often involved with that.
people who sit on boards, often some of the boards that I've worked with, they've been, people who are experts in their field, but just because you're an expert doesn't mean you know everything, and you may not have thought of something from another person's [00:43:00] perspective. And so I think that ego definitely is something that gets in the way.
I think there's a fear of, being vulnerable and potentially not being right and not having all the answers. And so sometimes people go straight to the telling or the problem-solving from their perspective instead of sitting back and going, "Hey, look, I may not be right, so tell me. I may not be right as well, so let's have a chat about that."
So I think there's a vulnerability in that as well. Mm. And I think that it... there's also a part in it how you've been brought up, your experiences in the world and in workplaces. You know, the human psyche is such a complex, you know, I'm not, not gonna say machine, 'cause we're not a machine, but a complex ecosystem of all the things that we've experienced, all the people we've been around, all the adventures we've been on, all the traumas that we have been exposed to or navigated will change us in particular ways and create the human that we see in front of us.
And so [00:44:00] often if they're in a situation or if we're in a situation we don't feel- Like we're understood
Bram Lagrou: Mm-hmm ...
Sophie Bretag: then the triggers around that and the emotional dysregulation that can come from that can really impact, on interpersonal relationships for sure.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah.
Hey, I'm mindful of, of time here.
Sophie Bretag: So- Yeah, we
Bram Lagrou: could
Sophie Bretag: chat for ages.
Bram Lagrou: We're coming, we're coming to, the end of the pro- of the podcast, but, one thing I know is that you wanted to touch base on something specifically-
Sophie Bretag: Mm ...
Bram Lagrou: which was around, if there, is a correlation between certain styles versus certain mental illnesses and the like?
So like- Yeah ... yep, that was basically what you wanted to talk about in the podcast.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah. I think, the reason I wanted to talk about maybe, more so in the risk factors that might be attributed to particular DISC styles. So say for instance with a D, me being a DI, so being dominant and being someone who likes to get stuff done, works at a [00:45:00] really fast pace, potentially I might not be great.
I am now, but that's a learned behavior. Taking breaks, slowing down, taking some deep breaths. You know, I guess from an I perspective there could be an overgiving or a giving out too much energy. There could be a, lacking details and just fluffing over the, you know, a situation when actually it probably needed a little bit more thought.
when you think about a CS, rumination. I know my husband, he's a CS, so ruminating quietly and then things fester So I guess for me it was just an interesting sort of topic that I threw out to you before we recorded the podcast. But it was more around from a DISC perspective, do you think that certain personality styles or certain parts of the DISC, group have different types of predispositions or are at risk of particular things that will impact their wellbeing and their mental health?
Bram Lagrou: [00:46:00] Mm. Mm. It's a great question, and, I remember one of your peers, Nicole- Mm ... was the first one who actually raised that question to me a few years ago, which meant then I went on for searching for an answer. 'Cause once you have- Yeah ... a question, you wanna be able to answer it. Yeah. it's interesting.
It's not just an opinion of mine. I found a piece of, s- scientific research performed by a gentleman called Peter Agnew, where in 2021, he doc- he, published a paper called Is There a Positive Association Between a Leader's DISC Style and DSM-5 Personality Disorders? And it then continues, A Comparison with the Interpersonal Circumplex Model, Australian College of Applied Psychology.
What I found in there was very interesting.
you spoke earlier about the high C, very analytical people. it's known that, the legal fraternity, and accountants, and engineers, like some of these professions that are high [00:47:00] C-driven have some of the highest depression, anxiety, and suicide rates across a whole number of different roles.
And so this paper documented that anxiety and depression correlates highly with C. Now, I gotta make sure that I quote this the correct way, which means- Mm ... it doesn't mean that everybody who's a high C- We'll have that. No- No ... it means if there is a, an Achilles heel- Mm ... if people are under stress too long- Mm
if they are being burned out-
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: the default mechanism that they will lapse into could be anxiety or depression. That's what it means.
Sophie Bretag: Mm. Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: So y- your self-awareness arms you against that.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: Right? It helps you to put the right practices in place to not become depressed or anxious- and develop a s- a whole pr- a, like DSM style disorder around it.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: on the flip side, which is the one that you probably will appreciate hearing about, is I, [00:48:00] being extroverted, flamboyant, energizing, sometimes loud, not detail-oriented, very big picture, fast-paced and the like- and not patient, right?
Sophie Bretag: Yes.
Bram Lagrou: that one- No, I
Sophie Bretag: know nothing about that, Bram. What?
Bram Lagrou: Yeah. That one apparently correlates highly with, what they call the histrionic disorder. Mm. Which means one that constantly needs a spotlight on them- Mm ... or a pat on the back or likes on Facebook-
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: It, it is like- So the
Sophie Bretag: dopamine hit. They want the dopamine hit.
Bram Lagrou: Exactly. It's like- Yeah
"Please high five me. Tell me how great I am." Yeah. "Tell it in public." Yeah. That sort of thing.
Sophie Bretag: Interesting.
Bram Lagrou: right next to them is then the other people person, which is the high S, which your- Yeah ... husband apparently is the nice guy. Yeah. You know, the family man, right? Yeah. the easygoing guy who likes his barbecue- Yeah
in the garden and gather around with- Yeah ... friends and go for a nice walk.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: high S, which is all about safety and security and community, right? Mm. They often, this is the risk that they have is, and [00:49:00] again, it shows everybody has strengths and weaknesses. Yeah. We all have, we all are at risk of something, and it's different.
Yeah. Yeah. But high S's, what do you think it would be? From a, from
Sophie Bretag: I think, he's, my husband's definitely a very giving person, very caring. quietly gets on with things, so probably a burnout, 'cause just keeps on give, give, give, give, give without giving much back to himself.
I'm not really sure. Maybe anxiety, because they sort of worry about things but I think everybody has that predisposition to being anxious about things. This is part of our natural makeup with fight or flight. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure.
Bram Lagrou: Okay. Well, drum rolls please.
Sophie Bretag: Diddle-iddle-iddle.
Bram Lagrou: it is actually for S's, you know how we have the saying, "Let's try to keep the peace ... I don't wanna step on anybody's toes. I don't wanna hurt anybody's people. Which is a typical S things to do, which means they swallow it-
Sophie Bretag: Yeah ...
Bram Lagrou: to keep the peace.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: They hold grudges [00:50:00] over time. the bucket is filling up, and quietly is just filling up, and you don't really see it, but sooner or later something hits the fan. And that is basically what they call on the DSM dependency disorder.
Sophie Bretag: Interesting.
Bram Lagrou: Where basically they're just taking things at their own expense, which then leads to burnout.
And where they don't-
Sophie Bretag: But
Bram Lagrou: do you
Sophie Bretag: think it's mar- ...
Bram Lagrou: necessarily voice themselves ...
Sophie Bretag: do you think that's like a form of martyrdom as well? Like, I feel like sometimes that could lead to resentment in that person as well, 'cause they sort of swallow, swallow, swallow, and then don't speak up, what helps them or will make things easier or give their opinions, and then can get resentful that people don't really understand them.
Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: 100%.
Sophie Bretag: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Which then- Mm-hmm ... becomes passive aggressiveness in, in- Yeah ... for example, in the workplace or something like it- Yeah ... or, or just like- Mm ... keep feeling that they're swallowing it, and they keep it on their own chest. Mm-hmm. Now, on the flip side of them then, the last ones would be the D's, and it's
Again, we gotta say again, it doesn't mean that every D person is- Yeah ... low emotionally [00:51:00] intelligent and therefore b- t- turns into a disorder. But that's where- Mm ... antisocial behavior that really blunt, direct, "I don't care about you, it's all about me" sort of behavior. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's the disorder that, high D's, correlate highly with.
Sophie Bretag: So a lack of empathy.
Bram Lagrou: Yep. Exactly. Which is- Mm ... what you said like, "Hey, people should really learn to become more empathetic as a leader." Mm. Well, that's exactly-
Sophie Bretag: Mm ...
Bram Lagrou: undoing- The resentment ... a potential trend- Mm ... of becoming a D bully.
Sophie Bretag: It's such an interesting discussion. That's why, it was just something I intuitively thought of before we got on the call, and I thought, "That is such an interesting discussion to have," because even when we think about all of those risk factors and all the potential predispositions, if we look at the core pillars around, what I speak of and what other people, do with their work as well, when it's in the e- emotional literacy or whether it's to do with wellbeing, anything like that, is if we can take care...
If we can know ourselves and take care of ourselves the best possible way, then we are at less risk [00:52:00] of those kinds of things expressing themselves within our lives. So I think it's, such a lovely full circle discussion moment at the end of it.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah. I personally love it as well.
And, it's so great that we can unpack this, 'cause I don't necessarily go there often.
Sophie Bretag: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: but hey, we got there. We touched on it. It's great.
Sophie Bretag: We did.
Bram Lagrou: If there's any final words that you would like to give to, the ones that are actually aspiring leaders.
What's the- best piece of advice that you can give them from your own journey- And all the work you've been doing with organizations and leaders out there
Sophie Bretag: Find yourself a mentor. Find yourself someone. Whether that's a coach, whether it's a, formal, informal mentor within the workplace, outside the workplace, someone you admire, someone who's walked the journey before you and you want that support.
I think, for me, some of the most impactful things have been able to be generated in my life and my career after I have had somebody in my sphere of influence who has been able [00:53:00] to, lift me when I am struggling, who has been a sounding board for when things have been difficult, and who has believed in me before I believed in myself.
Bram Lagrou: Those are such inspiring and, heartwarming words there, so I really appreciate that, Sophie. Hey, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on this, podcast, and obviously you're living the kind way clearly.
Sophie Bretag: I absolutely am. if I wasn't living it, I certainly couldn't write about it and put it out.
It would be too disingenuous. So it's been so lovely chatting to you, Bram, and going a little bit deeper on some of the more difficult topics.
Bram Lagrou: Thank you so much from the heart.
well, everybody, I hope you enjoyed this, episode here on the Energize with Bram podcast. be kind to yourself.
Look after yourself as Sophie would recommend, and I'll look forward to seeing you again in the next, episode. Bye-bye.
