[00:00:00] So welcome back everybody to the Energize with Bram podcast. If you're an entrepreneur, a business owner, or somebody that is here to make an impact, and change lives for the better, then this is a show for you. I always like to invite other people like us. I call 'em difference makers and entrepreneurs that are happy to.
Make a dent in the universe. And guess who we got today? We are welcoming no one less than Paul Katranis from SA Wealth. Paul, how are you going?
Thank you, mate. How are you?
I'm fantastic. And, we got really warmed up early.
It's awesome to have a chat and, the conversation can be light, it can be deep. we obviously had a prelude to the week that I've been through. the theme there is, your challenges and how you can, view it.
You can take it as something quite difficult that you can run from or just think of it as another problem to solve. And there's different levels of problems from the very beginning of your career or business startup. Bigger, more money doesn't necessarily mean lesser stress.
Probably more [00:01:00] is on the line, in terms of delivery. not maybe financially, but, yeah. So it's interesting, and again, recap and. Purely we were talking about before, but, starting out, on your own and looking at your time, capacity and resources. And then decisions around, do I wanna sort of get bigger, get support and resources?
How do I better service, the market that I'm looking after? or I'm quite happy just to cap it at X, y, and Z and just have a cruisey life. Goes into that discussion piece around the, online interview with a FR about lifestyle spending as a financial advisor. Talk to clients about accumulating wealth, but also, post retirement or during their accumulation phase, where to spend the money, can they spend the money?
So, there's no silver bullet in terms of how to live the best life possible. Do you sprint and save and finish up work earlier and then have this abundance of time, but then always think about what's my purpose? or do you go down the path of completely [00:02:00] enjoying life? but then you always have the burden of money on your mind as well.
So, how much you spend on your wedding and car and house? , Is wearing suits your thing or leather boots or whatever it is that you'd like as your sort of splurge or everyone's or driving a Lamborghini. Yeah. And to be honest, I said to the interviewer for that particular article, I had a few clients with exotic cars and I was like young, single,
had the financial means to do it, before having a family or being on the other, spectrum of life and not enjoy it as, a 60-year-old versus a 30-year-old. It's just another lifestyle experience. It's very similar travel. Like, do you travel at 20 or 30 or 40?
I think every life stage is important to have that taste because it's different at each life stage. I think all of those personal questions come into play with business as well, If you don't try something, you don't know whether it'll work or whether you'll like it.
Absolutely.
Just so that everybody knows a little bit more about you, you're a financial planner. You started your business 14 years ago. How large is that business now in [00:03:00] terms of head count?
About 30 full-timers. Yeah. 30 FTE. We morphed into finance, broking, accounting, and property.
Everyone said can't be done. You can't be a dual license planner broker and it works phenomenally well. There's no silver bullet with how things can be done. We thought we'd give it a go. We pivoted into areas that didn't work out.
Then, you sort of retreat from there. Or it's something that is not a niche we wanted to be involved in once we were in it. If you don't try something, you don't know what your flavor is.
And at this point in time, I think it's great segue into your key word that I heard you say many times this conversation and a previous one, which is opportunity.
You see opportunity everywhere.
There's so many opportunities. we went from planning, clients to them needing finance, broking, outsourcing. It was good up until a particular point where we thought we could bring it in-house and do it better in-house. Also with volume as well, and commercial viability to then doing the accounting, to then doing the property, to then personally doing property [00:04:00] development, to now saying, well actually I can do the construction myself.
Understanding in the value chain where the money is, and then from a pain and risk perspective, what's worthwhile to bring in-house and do it yourself, opportunities galore. Then some clients saying, I'd like for you to help consult with regards to my business.
So they're personal wealth clients with substantial, self-employed businesses, private companies, and then wanting assistance there. And again, you start to say, okay. Time versus money, value equity. There's all these opportunities and the more active you are, the more opportunities there are.
And it leads to more and more. So there's abundance everywhere. There really is. I mean, I love that. It's a massive pond out there. It really is. So, networks, contacts, connections. it's super important.
How do you do it? You mentioned the other keyword, which is time and time constraints and capacity.
How do you do it all?
It's challenging. We had a situation where we got caught out with volume coming through, a few of the key staff overseas, the new [00:05:00] hires at that particular time
to take on that share of the workload haven't eventuated. We've got a bit of a skeleton staff handling that. So it's pressure on everyone. And the conversation for me and for those ones that are wearing it right now, there's two ways you can look at it. It's all too hard or rise to the challenge and do the critical parts
that are needed on that particular file. The must haves, not the, it's nice to do. So get what you need done until reinforcements are back in. How many hires do you have? Do we need to run with an extra two or three spare support staff? Do you build into the system some slack?
How much slack do you build into the system? What's material? What hits the bottom line profit or loss? If you carry that extra support. But then also it's not good to run too lean because it produces stress on the key providers in the business.
It's all good questions and it's all learning. So, in answer to your question, awesome team really helps. The right support. And trial and [00:06:00] error. You might rotate through quite a few staff before you find ones that can stick through it, and reward them as well.
So equity buy-ins, and all the perks that come with it if they've earned it. It is a challenge, but, yeah, it's been awesome and no different to if you were just a one man band or multidisciplinary with multiple staff. There's challenges in all facets.
Absolutely. and it's just, opportunity. It's awesome. Like there's, we can't complain. Things would be a lot worse. Always be worse. You know, we talk about your beautiful, radiant smile all the time. It's a case of how you view life. I say to the grads quite a bit actually. They say, Uni. Once that's done, life's gonna be a bit easier. And I say, no, no, no. It's only beginning. Every life stage gets more difficult as you get older. You have more responsibilities. There's a partner to consider, potentially kids, financial, responsibilities, parents getting older, uncles and auntie's getting sick. The care that's required there. if you look at business. Outlook and life like [00:07:00] that, that here and now, life is the best it's ever gonna be. You make do with what you've got and you just roll with it.
Your financial planning career is not like many others. It's very different. And I'm hearing that you're always open to giving things a crack. So my next question. For those people that are there, entrepreneurs also want to grow. They decided that yes, they want to get the team, they want to have more impact, exert more influence and the likes. How do you go about balancing business planning and strategy and just giving things a go?
How do you do that?
So I think that you have to remove the emotion from decision and do the numbers stack up and is it worth testing it with a bit of capital and you take the quick wins. I think first what's minimal risk and outlay that you can pivot the existing business towards and start, increasing your turnover and profit by, and then you are adding layers of support from there [00:08:00] or give back yourself completely.
It's been year on year of growth for us, whereas sometimes I'll walk around thinking When is this gonna end? When is the revenue gonna stop coming through? When do clients stop calling? And you really do have to believe in yourself that what you do and your hustle will lead to opportunities. So then the other, concept is that you get your resources on board.
The run rate or expense is gonna be X per month, and pressure's on, you need to go out there and hunt, and bring in the opportunities, as quick as you can. It's an interesting concept in terms of how you build from there. I think it's pretty important that you back yourself and get the resources on board.
There's a fine line between how much you load yourself up by before it becomes too much. Bit by bit. At first, I was on my own. Okay? I'm at capacity. I might need some support.
Only hired a point fiver within six months. Paul, geez, I'm getting smashed with work. I need to go full-time. Six months after that, Paul, full-time doesn't cut mustard. I need some support. [00:09:00] We've got another person on 0.5. Then after six months, Paul can't do this in a 0.5. It needs to be full-time. And now we are hiring, not at the point fivers, we're hiring two or three at a time in batches.
And also taking the educated decision that we think that based on our forecast budgets we're gonna hit it. So no point in producing the revenue or opportunities and work and not having the support there. And it's a fine line, like I said, because of the size now that we're at, it's not like it's a small variance.
The variances are large. So we need to make sure we've got the right crew on board. Now that we're going through this hiring phase, we're gonna grab maybe six or seven at a time so we can set ourselves up from a management perspective, from a support perspective. And also I feel the, The, the support guys want to progress through the ranks as well. So not only are we adding on we need replacements as well, because they get promoted from within the ranks.
Yeah.
It's been interesting. Real journey.
Hey, I love how you [00:10:00] go about this. You move fast, but you do it with clarity and numbers and you know what you're doing. One thing that I'm curious about, how do you look at business planning? Like as in, Business modeling.
Like
'cause you've got now so many different
you've gotta be obsessed and you have to do numbers. I know the numbers because I'm obsessed with the numbers.
My wife thinks I'm crazy 'cause I've got till four in the morning on my iPhone, banging out some numbers I've got my Excel spreadsheets and cost of serve calculators. It just becomes another problem that you need to solve. the P&L is pretty straightforward.
You start working it out. What are the objectives of the business in terms of profit margins? Then you break up per headcount, what they need to deliver then you work out, we've got that as the wages for those who produce. We need to cover our cost center in terms of overheads and support crew.
Management you need to build in. Then we got the profit left over and you could run it, lean and fast, reinvesting back into the business to go faster [00:11:00] or you're gonna stagnate growth, or your price point's really high. High profit margin, but typically, high profit margin means that you're not reinvesting back into the business for more growth.
You need to hire prior to the revenue coming on. That means that your expenses coming up prior to the revenue coming in. And then it came to a point where it's like, okay, how many support staff do we need to support this revenue? You start asking the crew, for what you do, how long does it take to get done what you do?
How long does that take to get done? You start modeling out. Per deal. This is how much it takes in terms of time, capacity to produce X, Y, and Z. Based on this target it means that we need 30 or 40 hours per deal, and then you just model it out. So, full integrated Excel spreadsheets, a bit of a Excel geek to that extent.
It genuinely is a passion. You need to really want to know those things and how it all fits in and some clarity around numbers. I think you just can't wing it. You just gotta have some due diligence process, which is no matter what you do, it's what's the [00:12:00] outcome that we're trying to shoot for. Clear, identify the outcomes, and then work backwards from there and say, okay, we need to know these inputs to get to that outcome. That's really it.
It makes sense. Straightforward, odd question. Your energy, it's just you're like, go, go, go. Every time I spoken to you or a senior, you're just like, you're the same how do you actually build your energy?
As an entrepreneur husband and also a dad of, Three
daughters? Three girls, yeah. Six, four, and two years of age. They keep me young. They keep me on my toes. I always ask myself that question too. When you give someone responsibilities and they're capable, naturally they shine and take more on, and I think that's what's happened over time.
I think I was pretty average as a student, pretty average in high school, pretty average at uni when I started working at the bank. It started making sense to me. then you start getting a bit more responsibility. The ownership of the outcome. I guess a bit of self pride, is pretty important.
Your family name and who you are, what represents you. And from there it just built out. I've done a couple of [00:13:00] amateur bodybuilding competitions, which is a bit of discipline process, and it goes back to the whole discussion around, process and systems.
I've got my good periods, got my bad periods like anyone else. The outlook is life's too good to stress over things that are not material. It's not healthy to overstress. One day we're gonna grow old and die. Why not just give it a shot? I think the most important thing is that when you look back, you can say, I had no regrets.
I gave it a punt. What's worse than that is, your inability to try. Trying is important, but energy levels. Persistent diet, exercise every night between 8:00 PM and 10:00 PM. Hit the gym, do some cardio. Mental, physical exertion is pretty important.
And obviously yeah, healthy diet, don't really drink alcohol. And bit of family time, so, yeah.
Very good man. Love it.
There's no secret to it. Are you driven? Do you want outcomes? Do you want experiences? That's the big part of it. So [00:14:00] if you bought the Lamborghini, I just wanted to feel like the experience.
What was it like? I've skydived three times. What was the experience? No matter what someone says to you, skydiving felt like this, it meant nothing until you actually jumped outta the plane yourself. I've done a flying course before, you know, a little propeller plane, overseas trips.
I'm a bit of an action junkie but yeah, I want to experience things. I hear you. I want to experience things and businesses. A great adrenaline rush for that as well. So, and it doesn't need to be crazy risk, you can work within a certain degree of margin. Look at the numbers and give it a go. Then fine tune and fine tune. If you're sitting on the fence time's gonna go by and you're not gonna have the opportunity. So move with pace, and give it a go. And take your time out if you need.
We 're going on our first family vacation to Greece and Cyprus in three weeks. So you're now looking forward to getting back to the travel of the family. For the last six years has been a very intensive work in process with a young family. I'm looking forward to a bit of [00:15:00] family life, but again, educated decision around building up management team so I can do the travel with the family.
The business has some worth to it without me being the key person, and the key person dependency. I can do certain things if I need to step out. There's no right or wrong, it's just pros and cons on sort of what you wanna build out, but speak to peers, speak to colleagues.
Speaking of that, Paul, when was that tipping point when you went from, wanting to have a lifestyle business to building a business that could work without you?
I was attending a few of our professional development days.
There were quite a few stories about the advisor who was say, 60, 65 retiring by choice or not by choice in terms of ill health or sudden death. Then you start hearing the horrific stories around what the business is really worth because it was just them on their own or with one or two support staff
It wasn't a going concern. It had a book value maybe. And then with the Royal Commission book value took a tumble based on changes in legislation. So what is a book [00:16:00] really worth? And so you start asking questions around, well, how do I build out a business and determine it's worth?
And I just said to myself, well, I don't wanna be that guy that thinks about things at the last minute, let's succession plan from now. So I started when I was 27 years of age. Now I'm 41, 42. And I just said, I can't wait till the last minute. I need to get it done sooner rather than later. And naturally it morphed from there because of the demand and then getting support then saying, okay, I don't wanna just be the sole person seeing clients because it's a risk for me. I can't go on holiday, can't do certain things and clients have to work around my schedule. How about I get another advisor on? So we've got seven planner brokers, three real estate agents, two accountants, and all the support staff that goes with it so they can produce without me having to be around.
We say the management structure is to have myself as director, a GM, HR, growth manager, practice manager, and an office administrator as well, to help support that [00:17:00] crew. It hits the P&L, and then you start thinking about the cost of serve calculator. I didn't factor in management level type expenses.
So our price and cost of serve has to increase because it's not just me running HR. Now it's full-time and running HR. So you gotta think about those types of things and build into your cost of serve calcs. Again, you just have to ask those questions, speak to a whole range of different people.
As soon as you hit a tipping point, you start paying payroll tax that you didn't have to consider before. So does that come outta your profit? Do you add that to your cost? Does it realign your pricing? All those things. But then your volume can be much larger. In theory, more quantity.
You can do things at scale, lesser costs, but then you've also got additional costs that go into the mix. It's a trade off. You just have to be really inquisitive and obsessed with the numbers in your business and who you're serving and what they're after. You can't just be a part-time thing.
And that's what sort of scares me in terms of if I wanted to wind down, do you lose touch with the needs of the business [00:18:00] and your client, and other opportunities that may have come your way because you were so active to begin with? So it's all these challenges, not just the growth mindset, but also when you want to go down to maintenance phase or slow down, does that mean that you miss out on other opportunities because you've just known to do things a certain way your entire life?
So definitely, there's no right or wrong. I'm navigating my way through all this as I go. You talk to other business owners, Retirees. If you free your time, does it give you the mind clarity to pursue the next venture opportunity? Or do you do your thing now and then pivot into the next one?
All these things, and I'm sure you've thought about it, you've gone on these retreats with your clients and customers, and that's time away to think about where do they go, what do they do? It's all good questions.
Yeah, absolutely. If you're looking back now on the 14 years in your own business, when was really a dark moment for you and how did you navigate it?
Oh, good question. I would [00:19:00] say it would've been around about the second or third year in from the business. The ex-employer tried to sue me, in terms of breach of contracts. And so in our contractual obligations around, me servicing my clients, I had them to take with me and there was a dispute.
And being a startup. your P&L isn't as strong, so the intention of the previous employer, I'm pretty sure was to cause some financial harm. And so that was a pretty stressful moment. You start thinking yourself, ooh, this is going to hurt financially, like going through this process.
And again, you can look at it two different ways. You can yield or rise to the challenge. I think that was a kick up my ass to produce. That was like, I need to go produce now to make sure I've got the financial means to fight this. And we did, which is great.
It cost a bit of money, obviously a financial dispute. That was a difficult moment because I was, looking to get married and do a honeymoon. To have that in the background was pretty challenging. But now I look back at it what a thrill, what a rush, what an experience.
They [00:20:00] say that you haven't lived life until you've been sued. I laugh about it now, but at the time it's a scary thing. I guess, what type of character do you have? Are you someone that will just sort of bury your head in the sand or are you willing to move through it?
I'm hearing that it made you stronger.
A hundred percent. Without a doubt. Yeah. And there's been a bunch of challenges, throughout the business. Staffing is obviously the biggest pain point no matter what, because trying to build out a core team and the reliability and sustainability of that. How do you motivate them? How do you retain them? And you're only one person to be across so many people. So, yeah, there's lots of little micro challenges along the way and you just have to develop your own philosophy. You tweak it over time in certain areas of the business around pricing or how you do it, what differentiates you to the market?
Why, in terms of your clients, what differentiates you to the market in terms of staffing? Yep. But again, like anything, you gotta find a way to get the outcomes.
Just find a way to get the outcome.
And you keep an interest in mind, which is great. Now, let's talk marketing. One thing that I've learned through Umberto is, that you [00:21:00] guys don't actually advertise. Even you got a wait list. You often would turn business away. So how do you go about this fast growth?
Where initially you had enough with three new grads, now you're looking at batches of six to manage the work. Tell us a little bit more how you guys go about marketing.
Yeah, I worked at Westpac as a financial advisor, when I first left Uni. And that was a deep end process around cold calling, speaking to people that you've never met before, trying to build rapport, engagement, and it's bloody hard. I mean, I've never met you in my life, but they've got no personal connection with you. Give me your life savings and I'll look after it. No matter what you do, it's quite hard to build that rapport, if you don't show your hand with your personal life as well.
After the bank, some clients were amazing and they're still clients today. I was fortunate that they let me into their inner circle to trust me and it took a long time to build that. When we set the practice up, at the bank, I never wanted to deal with family 'cause I just didn't wanna mix in [00:22:00] business for family.
And when I went self-employed, I was like, well, the only way to survive now is to service family. I think it's just how you think about it. Your own mindset is the thing that limits you. I thought, why would I want a stranger looking after my family instead of me?
How stupid of me to think like that. If anyone's gonna look after my family, it should be me, because I know I'm gonna do the best thing possible. So don't have self-doubt in what you can do. Trust in your abilities and that you can deliver and have that difficult conversation around what can go wrong upfront and deal with the challenges initially.
So that was a big part of it. And then realizing, oh, how stupid can you be because dad's one of 12 kids. Mom is one of 10 kids. I've got 64 first cousins and their spouses and their kids and their family friends. it's been wonderful. So, the core clients and family and friends and high school friends, uni friends, primary school friends, soccer [00:23:00] friends.
Friends of friends. and it just morphed from there. And it wasn't harder. It was so much easier because we know you like you, trust you, or you've been referred by someone that we trust. There's no selling yourself and who you are and your background because it's been done already.
And that's when we just said, you know what? We don't wanna deal with random, so I don't want to advertise to the market and have a walk in or a cold call, it's too difficult to have to sell ourselves versus the amount of organic opportunities already coming through. So love them and they'll love you and they'll refer and it's actually been awesome.
So we service people that we know family, friends, networks, contacts and their referrals, and there's a methodical way to doing it as well. Love them and post sale love them even more. Send them a gift basket. Use the support to contact every three to six months, touch base, get to know the family, add them on socials.
If they've been referred three line deep [00:24:00] referral, add them on your socials. This is my life, this is my wife. These are my kids. They don't need to see you every day, but they see you on socials. I'll post something that I'm at the gym or I ate something funky, a big steak at a restaurant one night or whatever it might be.
So, it's been awesome. That's been a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. And the bigger the client base, the more you service them. The more you promote yourself in terms of your lifestyle. If you are born and bred in Adelaide, married with three young kids, embedded in the schooling life, it promotes stability, trust, responsibility, all the sorts embedded in financial services that you need, so it makes sense. That's it.
Great. I love the way that you all go about the marketing. it's different and many others would struggle to produce the amount of work that you guys are doing. You're leveraging the acres of diamonds under your feet, which is fantastic.
Yeah, it's been great. I mean, we think all the time about, do we do more advertising? Do we buy another business? But then it takes away from what we're doing at the core here, so there's no need to [00:25:00] double up and disrupt the core of how we produce that work and the ethos in terms of looking after your family and friends and networks. We thought about that as a strategy, but there's no need to disrupt what works already quite well.
A hundred percent. Looking back now, 14 years into this, what's the advice that you'd give yourself when you started 14 years ago?
I would've backed myself sooner, and not had the doubt. Having ethnic migrant parents, you know, when I left the bank, went to the private practice. Don't leave the bank. It's such a secure, and then go into the private practice, you know, setting up your own practice. No, don't do that. it's much more secure. Then you know, I'm getting pretty busy. I should hire someone. No, don't. You should be working 80 hours a week before you start hiring someone.
You need to buy capacity and then fill it up, Absolutely back yourself. You can't work 150%. you gotta be ahead of the curve at all times.
I've seen every single person that's come on board as a planner broker, they've been hired in a support role, then moved [00:26:00] into a revenue producer role, or a relationship manager. They've got better and faster each time because they've got more resources at the disposal to build their book faster.
So Nick was the first one. He took the longest, other than me to build the book because he was building it along the way as we're building out resources. Then Yani was a little bit faster. Bert has been super fast. Brad has been super fast. Angelo has been phenomenal because he is got all the services at day one.
He's got all the resources. At day one, it's just Fill it up, and you got orders of referrals that come in. Not everyone can service all the referrals that come into their book. So they'll try and segment. And so you are just using leverage from resources and excess work that comes in to build the next person even faster and even faster.
Am I hearing you say that build it first and they will come?
You need to. You can't chop wood [00:27:00] with a blunt instrument. You need to buy the instrument to cut the wood, to get the work, to get the money to buy the second, or you then get more work in.
You need to spend, get the capacity, find the work, get the work done, get the a hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Where is the trade off? So imagine you've done the numbers. You're backing yourself. How do you go about risk rewards at that stage? Because now you've left the job, the cushion, now you're all in. How do you make sure that you're applying your certainty at the right time and that at your peril?
Nick has bought in 10% as sole shareholder. It was easy enough for me to put more money back into the business to pivot from one service to the next. Hire, grow and determine the equity value. Profit margin wouldn't represent that completely because of putting money back into the business to accelerate growth. Now that Nick is a shareholder, we talk [00:28:00] quite lengthy about it. I was like, well, I've got a responsibility to you now around what we're going to be doing. So do we want to grow super fast?
Then it means I'm not gonna be paying as much of a dividend to everyone. For us two, I'm gonna be putting money back in. I'm gonna be hiring five, 10 people at a time. I'm going to be looking at different ventures of a property fund to do this, this, and this. We have to have some clear understanding as to what we want as an outcome here financially.
Is it super fast growth? Is it medium growth and medium profits, or is it just slowing down? Make sure that our profit margins super tight and high. But the issue then is that we're not hiring ahead of the curve to make sure we are catering for the growth. So, again, it's just an educated decision around what are we chasing.
You can't just be all super growth. You've got the bootstrap type business and they are all about build five, 10 years, take no money out, live like a pauper, but then exit at 10, 15, 20, a hundred million maybe, maybe not. So, all go down the path of traditional [00:29:00] business means, which is we'll put some money back to the business.
We'll grow at a sort of organic rate. It's interesting, again, business philosophy around what your growth rate's going to be, what your responsibilities to other shareholders are gonna be, and to your family as well.
It's all good questions.
Love it. Hey, this has been an awesome chat. Love the learnings, the golden nuggets that you shared. If there's any final note for a budding entrepreneur who's about to make the plunge...
yes.
What's the one thing that would really give him a sense of true north?
I would say that, You would have to look forward 40 years, 50 years, or your deathbed, would you regret it if you didn't give it a go? That's what I'd say. You've got one life. Money or no money involved. I've seen some pretty shitty scenarios where I've had to go to someone's deathbed to get forms signed for monetary beneficiary purposes.
What are the things that you would regret in life that you should have given a go, that you didn't give a go? It's probably the worst [00:30:00] thing anyone could have on their mind. So if it's that important, would you really take that plunge and do it?
What's the worst case scenario? You give it a go, it doesn't work. You go back to pay as you go. What's the big deal? And if you're gonna do it, you do it now. Doing it in 10 years is not gonna be any easier. We talked about the whole. You think, oh, in 10 years is gonna be utopia and maybe give it a punt then 'cause the kids are older or mortgage is done. Bullshit. Because you're financially secure, you're not gonna take that risk at that point in time. So Give it a go for six months, 12 months. Put a limit on the time you think you would test it to see if it's going to work.
Stick by it, and if it didn't work. It is what it is. There's no harm, no fail. We fail every day. I fail every day. I've had a couple of failures this week. Have some awesome wins on new things I've never given a go to, but it's come to fruition and it's significant in terms of a financial outcome for the client and for us as well.
That would be my advice. If you don't give it a go, you just don't know. And if it's really that important to you, you don't want to have that regret later on in life that you look back and say, I should have done that. [00:31:00] Wise words, well spoken. Thank you. Hey,
Paul,
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Appreciate having me. Thank you.
